Dr. Michelle Mazur is a message coach who helps expert business owners who often feel overlooked to create messaging that will get them seen. She does so using her 3 Word Rebellion process, which we talk about in this episode. This episode is alllllll about brand messaging. We also discuss:
- Things that you should and shouldn’t include in your website copy
- Voice of customer research
- The relationship between SEO and brand messaging
- Repurposing content and messaging that’s worked in the past
- How to organize and structure your messaging
Listen to these other Rebel Uprising podcast episodes :
- WHAT THE HELL IS MESSAGING & WHY DOES YOUR BUSINESS NEED IT?
- SELL THE RESULTS, NOT THE SOLUTION
- WHY YOU SHOULD DITCH IDEAL CLIENT AVATARS & DO THIS INSTEAD
Read the full transcript
Michelle Mazur 0:00
If your messaging is for everyone, you’re really watering it down.
Meg Casebolt 0:07
You’re listening to social slowdown a podcast for entrepreneurs and micro businesses looking for sustainable marketing strategies without being dependent on social media. Social media is a double edged sword. It’s a wonderful way to stay connected. But it also can feel like an addictive obligation. And it’s even more complex for businesses, your audience might be right there, but you’ve got to fight with algorithms to maybe be seen by them. So whether you want to abandon social media altogether, or you just want to take a month off, it’s possible to have a thriving business without being dependent on social media. This podcast is all about finding creative, sustainable ways to engage with your audience without needing to lipsync send a cold DMS, run ads or be available 24/7. Let’s get started. All right. Welcome to the social slowdown podcast. I am so excited today to have Dr. Michelle Mazur with me. Yeah,
Michelle Mazur 1:04
I am thrilled to be here. I love that you’re doing this podcast. It’s such an important discussion.
Meg Casebolt 1:10
I know right? And it’s like, there’s so much and you’ve you’ve been in the kind of marketing communication space for so long and seeing the evolution of social as the way that people understand digital marketing. So I’m very curious to hear your thoughts and what’s really working for you. But before we leave into that, give me like a, you know, 32nd intro. I know you’re so good at coming up with these, like very clear hits. This is who I am. And this is who I work with. So show us how it’s done with this like elevator pitch intro.
Michelle Mazur 1:38
Uh, yeah, so I’m Dr. Michelle Mazur, I am the CEO of communication rebel, the author of the three word rebellion. And I work with expert business owners who often feel overlooked and passed over for their expertise in favor of like those shiny internet marketers. My job is to help them create messaging that gets them seen and hired using my three word rebellion process.
Meg Casebolt 2:10
I love that so much. And tell me about the free word rebellion process. And then we’ll talk about how you get your clients specifically.
Michelle Mazur 2:16
Yeah, so the three word rebellion is a basically a short message, think about start with why or the five second rule or Black Lives Matter. That really encapsulates the change that you want to create. And it serves really two purposes in your business. The first purpose it serves is to make people stop and think and be curious so that when they hear three word rebellion, they’re like, Hmm, what is that? And what are my three words. And then the second purpose is that it’s easy for other people to talk about and spread. So for instance, like love at first search is a three word rebellion. And it makes Meg’s work easy to talk about, because when I talk about SEO, and I’m referring someone to Meg, I was like, Well, her business is called Love at first search. And people are like, Oh, that seems different. Tell me more. This doesn’t seem like SEO is going to be so scary to me anyway, anymore.
Meg Casebolt 3:19
So the Alright, I think it brings some and I have read the book. So good, sort of the framework that we’re talking about here, but it’s like it brings humanity and empathy and feeling into something that can otherwise feel so robotic and structured and like optimization, you know, like making my robot hands and robots.
Michelle Mazur 3:40
Well, and I think for me, what was interesting about love at first search, is that it’s it’s a pattern disrupter, right? Because when you think about SEO, you think about like the slimy emails, you get to your inbox all the time about like, oh, I can help you optimize and do all this and get you to the first page of Google. And when you hear love at first search, it’s like, oh, wait, this business is going to be different. And it’s going to have a different approach, which is what a good message should do for your business. Because once you have your three word rebellion, then you can build out all the other messaging for your business that actually leads people to work with you,
Meg Casebolt 4:18
and to see you as different from your competitors and to understand that differentiation and like, not just you are one of a million, but there’s something about you and and the way that you run things that they can expect something unique and differentiated. And they’re, you know, there’s so many, so many businesses out there that are competitors, that you sort of need almost a rallying cry to get people behind you. And I think that’s the big difference between having messaging which can be like, we help people show up in search results, and three word rebellion which is, this is who we are and this is how you can be a part of
Michelle Mazur 4:59
it. Yes, exactly. This is the change we’re hoping to create in the industry or in your life. I think that’s such a much more powerful message. And it’s way more interesting than I hope X to do Y so that they can Z.
Meg Casebolt 5:16
No, I’ve never told anybody in that template. I have done that all the time. I did that. But I say like, put your keywords into these places, right? Because when I’m like, stop saying that you hate you that you help creative entrepreneurs, because nobody says creative entrepreneur. So I was saying, like, sometimes I use that template, because I want people to put keywords into it. Because nobody says like, Hi, I’m Meg. And I’m a creative entrepreneur. So that doesn’t need to necessarily be in your copy. We need to get more specific. But this is not a conversation about sel. This is a conversation about messaging. So tell me, Michelle, because I think this is fascinating, like, how are you getting discovered? And having leads find you right now? And what is that relationship with social? And how’s that feeling?
Michelle Mazur 6:05
Yeah, so right now, people find me a through my book. So I do run Amazon adds to my book, because it’s the Amazon, like, if you’re an author, it just makes sense. People aren’t Amazon, because they like to read. And if they’re perusing books, and yours comes up, they might buy it. So my book is a big driver for my business, my podcast, if people show up on a sales call, and told me that they have finished my podcast, it is a sign that I know they’re ready to work with me. And also doing podcast interviews, like podcast interviews are a big discovery tool for me. And I’ve done a lot of podcast interviews over the past few years. But it’s a great way to for people to be introduced to my work and to the book. So those are my three main drivers for generating some leads and interest in my business. And the relationship with social like, my relationship with social media is rather fraught. Like everybody else is, is. And I’m, I have. So my main social media platform for ages was Instagram. And I liked it because you could do these carousel posts and the static posts. And if you wanted to, you could show up and stories. And then when they introduce reels I was like, I don’t like consuming that type of content. I don’t want to create that type of content, it seems like a huge time suck. So I have really automated my presence on LinkedIn. So I have three posts that go out every single week. It is posts that I have used before. So I am repurposing a large body of work. And you know, every once in a while I’ll get somebody who signs up from Instagram to my email list. But for me, it’s just that nurture. Yeah, it’s more of a nurturing function. Because I really, as much as people say, Well, if you do reels, you’ll go viral, and everybody will find you. And I’m like, do I really don’t want everyone to find me. I want the right people to find me and follow me.
Meg Casebolt 8:16
But sometimes I’ve talked to people who have gone viral. And they’re like, Well, that just opened up the door to the trolls, and didn’t actually get me any more leads than I would have gotten otherwise.
Michelle Mazur 8:27
Yes, I had an experience like back end like a long, long time ago, on LinkedIn when they first started LinkedIn articles. So this was probably 10 years ago. That was about, say, a decade. Yeah. And so I posted a blog post that I had, and it went viral. Like it had 40 50,000 views on it a fan. I know. And there was like a spike in my email list. Unfortunately, all of those were the wrong people for my list. And the scariest thing that happened is somebody printed out the article and took a red pen and found every grammatical error I could possibly make, and then tracked down my address. What sent it to me anonymously.
Meg Casebolt 9:13
That is creepy as hell.
Michelle Mazur 9:16
Yeah, that was,
Meg Casebolt 9:18
what is wrong with people. Michelle,
Michelle Mazur 9:21
I know I’m like, Who has time to do this.
Meg Casebolt 9:25
I mean, it’s one thing when people critique you online for things that are like, dumb. It’s like, you send me too many emails, and it’s like, well, here’s the unsubscribe button. Like the way I do business, then here’s a way out. But like, Chris, why?
Michelle Mazur 9:40
Why? It was creepy. It was super creepy. And I was like, I don’t really like.
Meg Casebolt 9:48
Kidding. Okay, so going back. People are really finding you through podcast interviews, through your book, and then through your podcasts and is it typically sort of that approach where people hear you on a podcast, they go buy your book, they go listen to your podcast, or like, they find you on Amazon, they read your book, and then they go to the podcast? Or do you find that there are kind of different entry points into working with you, based on where people’s initial point of contact is?
Michelle Mazur 10:16
Yeah. So I find a lot of times people will read the book, and then book a call with me because they liked the book, they have a good time doing like the three word rebellion exercises. And then there’s chapter five, and chapter five goes through how you do the analysis to find your three word rebellion. And at that point, people are like, I don’t want to do this, I’d rather hire Michelle to do this for me. So they’ll tend to book a call then. And then sometimes people like hear me on a podcast, and then they end up going to I have like a little free audio mini workshop about the three word rebellions. So they’ll go and they’ll download that, then they’ll buy the book, then they’ll read the book, and then they’ll book a call. So it’s, it’s all very different. And sometimes people just go like exactly what you’re saying, pod, you know, podcast interview, to book to my podcast, and then they’re in.
Meg Casebolt 11:16
And it’s so interesting to me that, like, there are so many people out there who are like, Why would you give away everything for free? You know, we’re for such a low cost, where you can say, Here’s my entire framework for $5. And people are so afraid to give value for free. But you’re coming up on 300 podcast interviews that people can go into, and some of them are interviews, and some of them are teachings and trainings. And you know, like, there’s a lot of value in there. It’s not all just Michelle reads, you allowed the book and talks about the framework, but it’s like, how do you know what is? What is the thing that is going to bring people in the door versus I shouldn’t give this away? Because they should pay me more for this?
Michelle Mazur 12:01
Yeah, so I just believe in transparency, because my framework, almost my incomplete framework, even for doing like messaging that supports your three word rebellion is in the book. Yeah. And I also know how hard it is to do messaging for yourself. So I mean, it’s one of those things that we are always we feel like, we should be able to do this for ourselves, I hear that all the time, I feel like I should be able to do this. And we are way too close to see our own work objectively, in a way in a way that we understand what makes it important in the minds of other people. So I know that even if you have the framework, it’s going to be a heavy lift for you to DIY. And it can take you several years, like I see people who’ve told me they’ve been working on their messaging for 236 years. So I’m fine with talking about like, how to do it the approach, why it’s important, because I know at the end of the day, they’re going to need some kind of help to really get something that is useful. And doesn’t sound like everyone else. Because when people try to DIY it, they will come to me and they’ll be like, What do you think about this? And I’m like, it sounds like a cliche, like, what do you think about scale your business, and I’m like, a cliche, you can’t own that it doesn’t make anybody curious. You should go read the chapter about the intrigue loop and how to test your three word rebellion, because it doesn’t pass that test. So I’m very comfortable with just being like, here it is, let me help you. And there’s going to be some people who are able to do it themselves. And that’s awesome. And great, but I don’t feel like I need to like, oh, hold back the secrets of messaging.
Meg Casebolt 13:59
Yeah, that’s how I feel about like my YouTube channel, is I can share tons of examples and give people the how to, and that just makes them more like, Whoa, this is a lot to cover. Maybe I should just hire Meg to do it for me. And there are things that we can pull together in, you know, an hour that could take people a year to figure out because we understand, you know, like the Charlie Day murder wall of it all, you know, you can step back. Because that back enough, then you can see the puzzle pieces and you can see how they fit together. Because you’ve done it so many times. I was having coffee with my friend Jacqueline this morning. And I fully outlined what her new homepage should look like and ran the wireframe and drew it all out for her because I’ve looked at so many websites that I’m like, this is exactly how it should be structured. Here’s these two call to actions like and it just comes together when you’re an expert on something.
Michelle Mazur 14:51
Yeah, well, I think that’s the power of expertise and I think what we as business owners sometimes forget as as experts P People don’t hire us because they also want to be experts. People hire us because they want the benefit of our expertise. They want the results our expertise produces. And my clients are always mystified that I can go in and like see a three word rebellion or take a mess of free writing and create a very well laid out client decision journey that’s actually going to move people from unaware to like raising their hand to being like, yeah, I want to work with you. And I can do it so easily. They’re like, how do you do that and like, have a PhD and like, 25 years of experience, communication, and this is muscle memory for me, but that I can do it quickly. Because I’ve done it so much. And I have so much expertise around it.
Meg Casebolt 15:51
It’s very much that like Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours, thing, yes. And then the more hours you put in over the 10,000, the the eat, the more your brain really does have those like neural grooves of being able to do things, both not just quickly, but like efficiently and at a very high level. And so when you’re working with people who are experts, how do you help them to take those neural pathways that they have and turn them into something that they can explain without getting too deep into the weeds?
Michelle Mazur 16:24
Yeah, it’s a lot of curiosity and slowing them down. Because I see my brain doing this all the time is that I can see the problem that we need to solve, and then I just want to go solve it and not really talk about the problem. Because I know what the solution is already. So when I’m working with someone, like I am never afraid to be like, I don’t understand this, like, What are you saying here? I had a call with a client yesterday where I was just like, so why is this important for your people to know? And he’s like, No, it’s important for me to know, I’m like, okay, great. So this isn’t a part of your marketing dump. But let’s just dump that for, like, you can keep it in your brain. But you do not want to talk about that, because I couldn’t make sense of it. And I was like, I don’t know how this fits in. So like, I always approach it with a lot of curiosity, slowing them down, asking them to back up, and just asking a lot of probing questions. So because if I don’t understand it, nobody else is gonna get it either.
Meg Casebolt 17:29
Yeah, I’m working really hard to read through all of this, your clients are not gonna they’re gonna skim.
Michelle Mazur 17:35
Yeah, yeah. Like, I know how people are when they land to land on a website. They’re like, Is this for me? And what if it is, what should I do next? They do not want a dissertation on your expertise.
Meg Casebolt 17:49
I’ve been doing all these website reviews the past month, and so many people have, like, here’s my approach for how I work with clients. And I’m like, unless you can prove that there is an outcome that they desire, they do not care what the approach is. And even when they sign on with you, they still don’t care what the approach is, do not waste valuable space on your website explaining like, first, I’m going to get your intake form. And then we’re going to have a kickoff call, because the only people who care about that are the ones who are on the fence, unless you’ve convinced them that they want the thing. And they’re finding some weird obstacle that they’re struggling with. Like, you don’t you don’t need all that extra. No one cares how the sausage is made. They care what the solution is.
Michelle Mazur 18:31
Yeah, I find it’s useful sometimes on a sales conversation, when you’re talking about like, Okay, we’re gonna move through four phases, or five phases. And here’s what that looks like. Because structure that kind of structure breeds trust, and people know, like, oh, okay, you’re going to be guiding me through this, you know exactly what we need to be doing. All of that is off my plate. But other than that people spend so much time talking about like, here’s my model. And here’s my approach in their marketing, where it doesn’t even make sense, because that is a very like service aware conversation you’re trying to have with people who still don’t know you well, or who are just trying to figure out if they have the problem, right. So there’s this huge disconnect, because you’re like, here’s my five phase approach to get your messaging or whatever it is. And they’re like, Wait, do I have a messaging problem? And who are you?
Meg Casebolt 19:26
Totally and how do you know what I need? You’re not the boss of me. Yeah, there’s a huge amount of trust that has to be there before people really get to the nuance of what a lot of people are talking about on their websites. And, and unless you grab them with some sort of differentiated and unique approach, then they don’t care.
Michelle Mazur 19:50
No, no. And that’s the thing going back to like the that conversation around expertise. It’s like we are obsessed with our expertise. Our clients are not Navy would not care. They want to know you’re an expert. And so I want to be careful here and make sure that please put your expertise on your about page, tell me why you’re qualified to do the work you do. Because I feel like in this internet age, they’ve we’ve heard the while your about page isn’t really about you, it’s about your client. And if somebody is looking to hire you, they want to know you’re credible. Because if I go to an about page, and I’m like, I don’t know what makes you qualified to do this work, I will not hire you. Period. Pull stuff up. So it’s important to like, tell people why you’re an expert and what your credibility markers are. But they really don’t care about the expertise itself. That yeah,
Meg Casebolt 20:53
they don’t need to know, this is what my dissertation was on. They just need to know that you have the experience. They don’t need to know all of the details. That’s why they’re hiring you instead of doing it, they just need to know that, you know, yeah,
Michelle Mazur 21:05
yeah, they want to know that you know, your stuff like, and that you’re going to get them the result. And you’re actually going to deliver on what you say you will, because I don’t know about you make but I work with a lot of people who were burned by other never marketing coaches. And I feel like this year, it’s worse than ever, like I’m hearing from people who’ve spent like $60,000 and didn’t get a result or who invested a crap ton in messaging, and then got a Google Doc that they didn’t even know how to use because it was like, Hey, tell me your five most brave moves. And now you can use that in your marketing. And it’s like, that’s not a message. That’s not helpful. It’s not going to persuade people.
Meg Casebolt 21:53
Yeah, I actually had someone come to me it was a year ago. So it’s not this past year. But I had somebody come to me, who said that their previous SEO consultant told her that no, nobody, Google’s their periods. Like that’s not a thing that women do. I was like, Oh, I beg to differ. I’ve Googled my period more than most things. Oh, my gosh.
Michelle Mazur 22:15
And women don’t also want to find out about perimenopause like nobody Google’s that.
Meg Casebolt 22:20
Right. It’s like because I don’t want to Google it. That means that nobody would. And I think this is what a lot of what we’re talking about is getting somebody to trust that you are the right fit for them. You know, I’ve had I’ve had, we work almost exclusively with women and people who were socialized as women, in part because that’s part of our messaging. But in part because we feel like they’re underrepresented within the space. And there’s a fear of what we’re talking about. And so I’ve had men email me and be like, I wanted to work with you. But you say you don’t work with men. And I’m like, Oh, I’m sorry. Do you have a problem with me being left out? Have you ever been left out of anything in your life? Have you ever not been the focal point of the messaging? And like, there, there’s always that like defense mechanism, when people come to me with that kind of stuff. But it’s like, well, maybe this messaging just isn’t for you. Maybe you’re not my person. And that’s okay. You don’t have to write me a mean email to say that I your business, because maybe I didn’t want your business.
Michelle Mazur 23:31
Yeah, well, and I think that’s one thing that I hear from people is that they’re afraid that their messaging is going to turn some people off. And I’m like, that’s kind of its job. Because if your messaging is for everyone, you’re really watering it down.
Meg Casebolt 23:51
Yeah, I think if you’re trying to be fun, you know, it’s like, is it Abraham Lincoln, who said, like, if you want to please, everyone, you’ll please no one?
Michelle Mazur 23:59
I don’t know. But I’ve heard that. Yes. But there’s something
Meg Casebolt 24:03
about you need to put a stake in the ground, you need to be polarizing. In some not you need to be polarizing or controversial. But it certainly does help you to be memorable and to draw in the people who have the same values that you do. So one of the examples that you gave was Black Lives Matter. And then there’s the other side of that, which is the like all lives matter movement. And there’s something about all lives matter that’s supposed to be this like inclusive, all encompassing idea, but it’s actually very offensive. Right? Like even when you’re trying to be inclusive to everyone. There is a certain extent to which that can be alienating, isolating, polarizing, right? So even if you’re trying to include everyone, you’re going to still find people that don’t resonate with it, because it’s not important.
Michelle Mazur 24:51
Yeah. And there’s also this current concept. I don’t remember who’s talked about it or who coined this term, but it’s called Content Next collapse, that when you are on, I think the best way to explain it like if you’re at a party, and you kind of have a racy story about your last vacation and you’re surrounded by all of your friends, you’re going to tell that story in a very specific and certain way. Versus if you’re at a wedding and your grandma’s there and your cousin, you will tell that story very differently and watered down the meaning because you don’t want to offend anyone. And I see that happen on the internet. It’s like, oh, my website speaks to everyone. And so it’s not meaningful to anyone at all because of that context collapse. So they lay in there, and they’re like, I don’t know if this is for me, because yeah, I guess I’m overwhelmed. Or I’m stressed or I’m frustrated,
Meg Casebolt 25:54
but burnt out. If you hear overwhelmed, you’re going to also hear overwhelmed stress burned out. Those are the words that I want to cut out of all website copy. Yeah.
Michelle Mazur 26:03
And I’m like, Yeah, but what does that look like? Because overwhelm for a mom looks very different than overwhelm from someone like me versus somebody who works in corporate versus a dad. So be more specific, so that you actually attract the people that you want, instead of just the masses, because your business is not for the masses.
Meg Casebolt 26:31
Yeah, so you’re building a business, not a platform. So if you want to be found by a certain person to solve a specific problem, then you don’t need to be found by everyone for every problem, either.
Michelle Mazur 26:42
Yes, exactly. And I know that scares people. But specificity being ultra specific is one of the most important things I drive in people’s heads when I’m working on their messaging, or they’re doing like a messaging workshop with me.
Meg Casebolt 26:57
Absolutely. And like knowing what the problems are that you’re solving. And I think that that can go into, you know, when we’re talking about messaging, and people might be like, Well, what does messaging even mean? Right? A messaging is about being consistent across everywhere that you’re communicating with people in a way that is memorable. Maybe you would describe it in a different way. But when I think about like, Michelle’s message, I’m like, this is going to show up in your website, in your podcast episodes, in your book, in your email sequences, in your broadcast emails, and in your social media. And in your podcast interviews, like, nobody’s going to be surprised when they tune in to what Michelle podcast and they’re like, Oh, cool. She’s talking about the three word rebellion, right? Like, because that is the message. shouldn’t be surprised if you’re following somebody to hear the same things across multiple channels.
Michelle Mazur 27:49
Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the big myths, misconceptions, especially in online business, is that messaging is just like an elevator pitch, or it’s an eye help statement, or I’ve even heard it defined as like your content plan, which I’m like, oh, Kay, kind of. But messaging is really a comprehensive strategy that moves people towards working with you. And and it allows you to be consistent at every touch point. So what you’re talking about on a podcast interview, because I’ve had this experience, I’ve heard someone on a podcast thought they were great went to their website, and I was like, What is this?
Meg Casebolt 28:31
What happened here is not what happened here.
Michelle Mazur 28:33
Yeah, I’m like, This doesn’t make any sense. So you want that consistent experience across all of your platforms across the whole customer awareness journey, so that they know what you’re about. And let’s face it, people aren’t paying attention. So you have to repeat yourself, like a million times in a million different ways in order to get your point across.
Meg Casebolt 28:58
Yeah. And I think also, like, if you have messaging that’s consistent across multiple channels, then you can drop a channel and it won’t hurt. So when you said like, I used to be on Instagram, because I really love the carousels, and I could repurpose them and, you know, publish the same carousel post every three months, and people wouldn’t have seen it because it would have pushed down the grid. And now that it’s over on video, I can’t really do that repurposing anymore. And I don’t want to create content like that. So I’m just going to spend less time on that platform. Your messaging from what you had on Instagram is not different from what you have happening on LinkedIn, or in your emails, or in your podcast. So if you drop that channel, people might just go find you somewhere else, or they’re probably already following you somewhere else. And they can just go track down what you’re doing in that space or see it it’s show up in their inbox. So it’s not like you know, you need to create something different for every channel and you need to, you know, do your hair in this specific way, so that way Monday’s content looks different than Tuesday’s. I’ve done it but they don’t, you don’t need to. Because if you’re consistent, and if you’re clear, then nobody will be surprised, even if they’re seeing the same thing every three months, because you have it on some sort of automated loop like that. Yeah, surprise,
Michelle Mazur 30:16
well, and nobody remembers any way. Like one of my best performing posts on Instagram got like, repurposed again, and now it’s one of my best performing posts still, because people didn’t remember that I had said that before, because we’re not paying attention.
Meg Casebolt 30:37
And new people are joining at all times, no matter what you’re producing. Even if you have 300 podcasts, there are probably some people who have listened since podcast one because they were your super fans, what would that be like, six, seven years ago. But there are people who are going to listen to you today and start listening to you at podcast 300 or go back into your archives and be like, Okay, let me just pick the ones that have the titles that seems most interesting to me where I am right now. And I’m not going to go through and binge all 300. Because I don’t need to, because the things that you’re saying at episode 300 are very similar to the things that you were saying at episode one.
Michelle Mazur 31:18
Exactly, exactly. And
Meg Casebolt 31:22
to the subscribers who have been hearing the same thing for seven years, but you know, that’s, that’s what it shouldn’t be. It’s just iterating an idea.
Michelle Mazur 31:30
And that’s the beauty after a while, it should be easier for you to create content, you should be able to like, oh, I sent a really good email a year ago, it doesn’t mean you never send it again, if you have a consistent message, you can easily send that out again, and still get really great results. So I, I feel like in the online business space, people make so much work for themselves, because they’re trying all of these marketing tactics, but they don’t have the foundation of their messaging. So then they’re just like, well, I’m throwing spaghetti against the wall. And I’m hoping that it’s actually going to lead me to clients. And I’m like, That is not how you run a business. That is not how corporate America does it. Like the thing that I not that I love working in corporate America. But the thing that I took away from doing so many research projects, is all of those companies invested heavily into the messaging and testing the message before they went to market. Now as solo business owners, we don’t have that luxury of doing a million dollar message test project. But they created a message to be tested. So if you create your message, then you can take it out into the world and tweak and evolve as you go. But most people don’t have the message. So it’s hard to evolve something that doesn’t exist.
Meg Casebolt 32:55
And if you’re listening to this, and you’re like, Oh my God, I don’t have a message, my business is broken. You you might have more than you think it just is it like fractured. Yeah,
Michelle Mazur 33:07
what I see is my clients come to me, and they have word of mouth businesses. So they’re totally referral driven. And that has worked great for them up into a point. And if they are referral based, it’s clear to me they know some of their message. They’re just they’re just not able to translate it into marketing. They’d much rather just have a conversation, because then I can spend 30 minutes telling you what I do instead of trying to write like a pithy blog that you’re going to skim. And so that’s kind of that disconnect. It’s like, yeah, your messaging is already there. It just needs to be organized and structured in a way so that you can actually mark it with it consistently.
Meg Casebolt 33:57
Totally. And I think the key thing that you just said off, it was like market with it consistently. And we’re talking about being able to reuse and repurpose, like, I have an internal rule in our team that if we cannot use something 10 times that we do not create that thing. And so some of that is like, Oh, this social media image, we can reuse, we can repurpose, we can create a template, and then we can just swap out like here’s the guests face, and here’s how it looks on social or whatever. But even products. You know, I was talking to you before we started recording about a new offer that I’m thinking about and I’m like, I’m just not sure how I want to structure it. And I’m not going to offer it to one person until I know that I have enough of a framework that I can offer it to 10 people or I will offer it to you and be like okay, now what did I do with Michelle so that I can then streamline it and like productize it and figure out who else would need it. But if you can’t, if you can’t repurpose things multiple times, then it’s not in alignment with what it is that you do and your values and your message. And like, if you’re creating something bespoke every time, then it’s not a good use of your time to
Michelle Mazur 35:11
Yeah. And I would also add, if you’re confused about what your message is, than everyone else’s, as well, like, if you haven’t figured out how to say it, your potential clients aren’t going to figure it out for you. So it is definitely something as business owners, we have to spend some time doing, and doing the work around so that it makes marketing our business so much easier and more effective.
Meg Casebolt 35:40
And I want to talk about one more thing, which is your three word rebellion book club, by the time this goes live, you will probably be closed. But I do want to talk about like live marketing events, and how those fit into this plan, too. Because mostly, we’ve been talking about the one to one work, and you know how people are finding you on their own timeline coming doing a discovery call booking you one to one, but you’re also running more of these book clubs and workshops. How does that fit into, you know, how you are working with people?
Michelle Mazur 36:10
Yeah, so the book club is an experiment. And it really came out because I was doing a content audit. And because I was looking for shows to rebroadcast and I realized I hadn’t done a show about the three word rebellion in probably a year like a mile out it, but I haven’t done a standalone show. And so I so we decided that we would do a book club, because one of the things I hear is like, Oh, I love your book, and I haven’t finished it yet. I’m like, Well, what if I mean together, created some supporting content that actually helped people read the whole book, and either three word rebellion or get closer to it. So that’s what that sprung out of. And for me, I was also hoping it would use book sales, which it has. So we’ll see if it leads to clients. And then the other thing well, and it also might lead to people wanting to be in one of my workshops. So I have two workshops that are kind of they’re you know, they’re low cost, they’re like $150, for a three part live workshop. And they always promise a specific results. So something like marketing uprising is about creating a 30 day marketing plan, because that’s what people told me they wanted and then nail your message is about creating three foundational pieces of message to explain what it is you do and why it matters to the people who should hire you. And so those are a great way for people to experience my work. During the workshop, I offer a bold messaging session, which is like a 90 minute, like, let’s get to roll up our sleeves and get to work. And then some of those clients, then we’re like, Alright, I just want to hire you to help me do all of this. And then they become one on one clients. So it’s a great way for people to experience my work to experience the expertise, get some concrete results, and then decide to work further with me.
Meg Casebolt 38:11
And the most of those people are coming from your email list, right. So like you send out an email and you say I have 10 or 15 spots available in this workshop. And usually within a day or two, the workshop sells out because people are there on your email list after having listened to the podcast or read the book. But they’re not quite ready to make that larger high ticket high touch investment. But like $150 workshop where they have an outcome by the end of a week, like that feels like a no brainer for people who want to test out working with you and many of them will stop, they’re like sure, then who will then move on to the 90 minute session or the full messaging. But like a lot of them might just stop at that point. And that’s all that they can afford, or all that they need to move forward with where they are. And that can be enough. Like, I think sometimes people get so obsessed with these like high touch offers, and how to get people up to the highest tier of their value ladder without going like sometimes people just need a workshop.
Michelle Mazur 39:05
I know and my and the thing was I did kind of like what you did with website audits. I did some rebel messaging audits at the beginning of the summer just to look at people’s messaging. And I’m like, Ah, these people don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to messaging. And I’m like, What can I create that is a lower cost that gives people a specific outcome that gives them a framework to create the message so that then they can translate it to their website or their social or their sales page. And that’s what why the nail your message workshop came about because I’m like, Y’all don’t even know what you need. And I do know what you need. So how can I create something that’s actually going to move you forward?
Meg Casebolt 39:55
Exactly with a clear deliverable at the end of the allotted time period where If you show up, and if you do the work, this is the expectation of what you will have by the end. I think people really struggle with that, too. It’s like, what are the baby steps along the way? What are the things that we can do? And actually, after you and I talked about that workshop, I was like, Alright, I’m changing October to be just a homepage, we’re not gonna, we’re just gonna do like, This is it? Here’s the container, here’s the outcome by the end of the month. And then if you want to roll into the next program, this is what that looks like. And it feels much more content. Sometimes you need those containers, you know? Mm hmm,
Michelle Mazur 40:29
exactly. And people have told me what they like about the workshop is, it’s the first time they’ve taken like, dedicated time to actually work through and think about their message. And like, I give them like workbooks for every day. So it’s like, we are actually filling out a workbook and creating message messaging during the workshop. Sure, it might be a shitty first draft of a message. But they’re still doing the work for it.
Meg Casebolt 40:56
It’s like Anne Lamott book Bird by Bird where she’s like, sometimes, you get your 9000 words, and the kid gets into the cafeteria, and you’re like, oh, cool, the party started. But you have to work through it. And you have to sit down and do it. And if you don’t have a dedicated time allotted for it, you don’t have the accountability for it. You’re gonna get to chapter five of the book, and you’re going, Oh, well, this got hard.
Michelle Mazur 41:18
Yeah, that’s got hard, I’m gonna quit. Like, I
Meg Casebolt 41:21
can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten to week five and couch to 5k. And I’m like, Who? 15 minutes? No, no, I’m going back to my eight minutes. That was good. Unless you have a coach there unless you have somebody to help you with it. And maybe this is also something that people can take away from this conversation is, if you know where your people are getting stuck. How can you help them get over that obstacle? It doesn’t have to be the full framework, it can be. Chapter Five is where they get stuck. How can I just help them with chapter
Michelle Mazur 41:49
five? Yes, exactly, exactly. Or what is the thing that they need to get a quick win? It’s funny, because I had a hard time conceiving of the nail your message workshop, because messaging is so big, and what’s most important, and then I was chatting with somebody who’s like, because I just kind of put it out there and thinking about doing this workshop. What do you think? And somebody wrote me, they’re like, when are you offering this? Because I need it like yesterday. And then I just asked them, I was like, Well, what do you want to get out of it? They’re like, Oh, well, I have your brand message map. And there’s just like, I feel like you could use that, like certain things from that map. And I was like, Oh, I forgot I created that.
Meg Casebolt 42:28
I know that sounds right.
Michelle Mazur 42:29
I know. And then I’m like, I went back. And I was like, and I just pulled out certain aspects of it to teach.
Meg Casebolt 42:36
Yeah, sometimes the answer is right there. And it’s just fractured. You know, and you just need to and your audience might know better than you. And that’s why voice of customer research is so important to where that
Michelle Mazur 42:47
is you one thing that I teach in the workshop, it’s like, throw out your ideal client avatar, because those people don’t actually exist, and you can’t sell to humans who don’t exist. And do like talk to people or it’s you already have it. It’s like in your intake form. It’s in questions people ask you, like, all you have to do is pull it out which, okay, I made that sounds super simple. But it’s not. I’m a researcher. So it’s easy for me.
Meg Casebolt 43:16
Right? You’ve taken like a doctorate level courses and how to like data mine and an analysis of it. So maybe not forever.
Michelle Mazur 43:24
Yeah. But it exists, and you have access to it. That’s the most important part. Yeah,
Meg Casebolt 43:29
and for me, like, you know, Voice of Customer is not necessarily something that we do for keyword research. But I still encourage people to do it, because it’s like keyword research is just voice of customer at a 30,000 foot level. It’s voice of customer at a national level. It’s saying, you know, my people say that they’re struggling with this. And then you go, Well, how many people are saying that exact same thing to Google? Because they’re not talking to you? How many people are saying that across the country? And how many other people have written about it? That’s all keyword research is is just high level voice of customer.
Michelle Mazur 43:59
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Meg Casebolt 44:02
And if you know what your audience needs, then that can also fit into your brand messaging, you know, and that can make you feel more specific and more like you are seeing what it is that they’re talking about.
Michelle Mazur 44:13
Yeah. And then it makes them feel more seen and heard, because it’s like, oh, my gosh, that was exactly what I Googled last night.
Meg Casebolt 44:20
Totally like word for word. You can copy what people are googling and show up in that exact phrase. So, okay, again, not an SEO podcast, but no, like, your keyword research can absolutely impact your brand message and vice versa. You know, you and I share a lot of clients back and forth and I’m like, oh, right, I have their three. If I see a three word rebellion document, I’m like, Alright, I have their entire content strategy ready to go.
Michelle Mazur 44:46
I know SEO strategists and copywriters love me because the brand message guide I deliver is like so thorough that it’s like literally everything you could ever think about. And and then it’s structured in a way where it’s like, all right. So my underwear problem where people are talking about these things cool. Maybe we do keywords around that
Meg Casebolt 45:06
yet, but then I’m also like, Okay, let me pull more of those problems where, like, I always go way earlier in the customer cycle than you do. Okay, we’re just geeking out now. So Michelle, if people want to learn more about you follow you, what is the best way for them to get started?
Michelle Mazur 45:23
Yeah, so I live at Dr. Michelle mazur.com. If you’re gonna
Meg Casebolt 45:27
give me your address, and be like, just mark up all my documents with a red pen and send it to me. Here’s where you can send your edits.
Michelle Mazur 45:38
PO Box, no. My online presence email@example.com. If you want a taste of the three word rebellion and want that audio workshop that’s at three word rebellion.com. Or you can just buy the book. It’s wherever books are sold. And there’s an audio version available as well if you prefer listening to me instead. And we’ll
Meg Casebolt 46:03
also make sure to include some podcast episodes that are relevant to this conversation in the show notes. So if you are, you know, on your podcasting device, and you’re out and about and you’re not like, oh, I need to go buy this book will include some some episodes that you can just listen to straight from this one. Well, thank you so much for being here. Michelle. I appreciate it so much all of your expertise and brilliance. And, you know, I really appreciate you being here.
Michelle Mazur 46:28
You’re so welcome. Thank you for having me. This was fun.
Meg Casebolt 46:34
Thank you so much for listening to the social slowdown podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe or come on over to social slowdown.com and sign up for our email list so you never miss an episode. We’d also love if you could write a review to help other small business owners find the show you can head over to social slowdown.com/review Or grab that link in our show notes for easy access. We’ll be back soon with more tips to help you market your business without being beholden to social media. Talk to you then
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