You’d think it would be the default way of marketing, but it’s not. And why is that?

In this week’s episode, I’m speaking with Sarah Santacroce about humane marketing.
We also discuss:

  • Showing up authentically
  • How gentle/humane marketing is different from mass marketing and automated systems
  • Hardcore “bro marketing” and manipulation 
  • Unlearning what we know about marketing
  • Other collaborative ways to market your business (summits, etc.)

More about Sarah:
Over a decade of running a successful LinkedIn Consulting business inspired a yearning in Sarah to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness to business & marketing.

As a ‘Hippie turned Business Coach’, Sarah has written two books, hosts the Humane Marketing podcast, and works with heart-centered entrepreneurs to question their assumptions when it comes to marketing & give them permission to market their business their way, the gentle way!

Sarah shares a fresh perspective and doesn’t shy away from calling things out that no longer work for many of us when it comes to the current marketing model. Her clients sometimes refer to her as ‘the female Seth Godin’.

Read the full transcript

Sarah Santacroce 0:00
but it’s not selling for selling sake, it’s selling because you actually have a solution to offer.

Meg Casebolt 0:09
You’re listening to social slowdown a podcast for entrepreneurs and micro businesses looking for sustainable marketing strategies without being dependent on social media. Social media is a double edged sword. It’s a wonderful way to stay connected. But it also can feel like an addictive obligation. And it’s even more complex for businesses, your audience might be right there, but you’ve got to fight with algorithms to maybe be seen by them. So whether you want to abandon social media altogether, or you just want to take a month off, it’s possible to have a thriving business without being dependent on social media. This podcast is all about finding creative, sustainable ways to engage with your audience without needing to lipsync send to cold DMS, run ads or be available 24/7. Let’s get started. Hello, friends, it’s Megan social slowdown podcast. I am here with Sarah Santa Croce, we are going to be talking all about humane marketing. Sara, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Sarah Santacroce 1:07
Thank you for having me. I can’t wait for this conversation. I think already we should have recorded the pre episode.

Meg Casebolt 1:15
I always listen to podcasts. And people say that and I’m like, I want to know what they said.

Sarah Santacroce 1:21
No secrets, but it’s just like, yeah, sometimes the most human stuff happens before. So let’s just continue from that thread and keep it that way.

Meg Casebolt 1:32
Exactly. And even when you’re doing some of that sort of, hey, it’s my first time meeting you but we know that our values align, you can leap into a conversation that much faster and feel like you’re getting to know somebody because you already know enough about how they feel about the world, you know, yeah, makes a huge difference. So that’s a lot of what I want to talk to you about today, too, is showing up authentically and using your personality and the things that are valuable and important to you, in your marketing and in your messaging. versus you know, so much of that kind of bro marketing automated systems, like mass marketing approach to things. So if you don’t mind, if you could give us a kind of a quick overview of your life in this online business space. I know you’ve been doing this for a long time and have gone through a couple small slash major pivots over that time. Just give me like a quick origin story.

Sarah Santacroce 2:27
Yeah, yeah, I like to go back to my childhood actually. And I just started recently doing that, because I realized, Oh, it is actually important. And it’s also a story I didn’t always tell. And so I grew up in a hippie commune. So it’s kind of a unique upbringing. You know, six families basically bought an apartment building together, my parents and five family friends in and so we grew up, kind of knowing all the other families having a lot of dinners and lunches together and creating parties and, and I was just on another podcast where the guys like, so was there like weed and singing? I’m like, there’s definitely singing. As far as I know. So yeah, it was just a, you know, kind of a communal living. And I’m telling that story now, because I realized how I’ve hidden it away from the business world for so many years. And when I had kind of this, you know, break down to that led to a break through this dark night of the solo. I was like, Well, why am I so miserable? Well, first of all, it was because of the marketing that we’re told how to do it. But then also, because I realized, well, at all this time, I’ve been hiding behind the mask, I didn’t really show up as the real Sarah. And so going back into that story really helped me realize, first of all, who I really am, what kind of values I grew up with and why that’s important if when I want to bring those values into my marketing, and then also yes, today, I’m basically that I call myself the mama bear of my humane marketing community. And so kind of this community living is part of my DNA. I grew up with it. And it’s just kind of like, this is how I, this is how I run right? So, so yeah, that that was my upbringing, and then basically started a business in 2006 2007. Somewhere around there. We live in California at the time, my husband got a job transfer. And then it was in the middle of the social media,

Meg Casebolt 4:38
boom. 2000 sevens right in that space

Sarah Santacroce 4:42
right there. Right. And so all the big names, you know, Amy Porterfield, Lewis, Howes, all these big gurus kind of they were birthed that one was the big kind of era of the gurus. And the gurus were very nice gurus. I’m not saying that They’re not good people. However, that’s how we have kind of learned how to become marketers by people telling us how to do it. And here’s the six steps. And here’s the success recipes. And here’s how you do it. Right? Here’s the

Meg Casebolt 5:17
Facebook ads into the three part video series into the email funnel with the seven emails that each has a link to open to the sales page that you tagged. So that way, you can remark it into the Facebook ads with the people who open so yeah, I’m being a little bit over the top of the explanation here. But like, none of this is actually exaggerated. There was that time where that was what everybody was doing. And that was the only way of doing it. And it sounds like that was sort of when you entered the marketplace.

Sarah Santacroce 5:47
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so obviously, as a new business owner, you just thought, well, that’s the way it works. That’s what you have to do. And so over the years, the integrity piece, or the integrity voice kept getting louder and louder and louder and yelling, and basically ended up with insomnia. And like, you know, why is this so difficult? Like how could you know, how can I keep going and, and so eventually, yeah, I remember sitting on the therapists chair and just saying, it’s just so hard for me, I just want to, you know, I want to be kind, I want to be empathic. I don’t want to manipulate people into buying my stuff. So that’s the story. And that’s basically where in that moment where I’m like, Well, I either give up after 12 years in business, or I’m the chosen one to say, hey, here’s a different way. And so that’s what he made marketing is all about. Yeah. So I think that’s

Meg Casebolt 6:47
a great transition of told me about, you know, gentle marketing, humane marketing, how your approach is different from this sort of mass marketing automated system,

Sarah Santacroce 6:57
right? Yeah, is usually different. And yet, the differences are so subtle, if you’ve kind of also grown up in this online market space, where we talk about funnels and leads, and all of these things that are not very humane, right, then it really is kind of this switched approach where you are not coming from the idea of pushing and chasing, and convincing and manipulating, but more from the place of resonating with your ideal clients. And so in order to resonate with your ideal clients, what you actually have to do is build the right foundations. And by that what I mean, is doing that inner work and going back to maybe your childhood, and maybe you know, your story of how you grew up, and your values, and all of these things that we sometimes hear oh, yeah, you shouldn’t have your values on your website, and then you just look bunch of them up. And it’s not that it really is that deeper inner work to realize, well, who are you? What is your worldview? What’s your bigger? Why? Why are you in business? And then bring all of that into your marketing, I talk a lot about bringing the worldview into your marketing, just like what you said, when we first connected, we already know our values are aligned, right? There’s a very high chance that we could end up working together, not just because, okay, you offer a service that I might need, but because you offer a service that you that I might need, and our values are aligned, I think nowadays that is so much under estimated how much impact that has. And so that’s what humane marketing is all about. It’s it’s about. Yeah, again, that resonating piece and coming from empathy and kindness, and not wanting to push people into into buying but actually empowering them to make a smarter buying decision.

Meg Casebolt 9:09
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think, you know, I was actually just talking to my team earlier this week, I was doing a keyword research project for an organization that helps with executive search for people who want to do more diversity, equity and inclusion work and make sure that the hiring that they’re doing is not just like, Oh, we found a candidate who’s bipoc Like a person of color, but we made sure that they were a good fit for the community that the board was was representative, you know, these are all nonprofits or educational organizations. And so the keyword research that we were doing was about compensation packages and wage gaps and like things that that really light me up that really feel in alignment with my not just my business, my agency values of inclusion, transparency, secure Reality, you know, but also my personal values. And I think sometimes people will conflate the two of well, like you said, I have these phrases and buzzwords on my website about authenticity. Right? But that they are just words. Yeah. And the thing that I think you do really well is helping people figure out how to take those gut needs, right, and turn them into actions. And when we have an understanding of what lights us up, which for me is like still nerdy keyword research. But keyword research, that’s not just, you know, how do I get more clicks to my clients website, so that way, I can get more traffic into their funnel, which will then convert at a 3%. And we can maybe increase the conversion rate to 3.1%. But it’s not a good fit, you know, like, none of that has ever felt good to me.

Sarah Santacroce 10:59
Yeah. Who made you research keywords that were completely against your values? You know, then you’d be like, No, that that’s not what I meant by, you know, being fond of keywords. It depends also, in your case, what kind of keywords and if they’re aligned with your values, what the what the outcomes are, that the additional traffic for those keywords would like what mean to that client?

Meg Casebolt 11:27
And it’s not just what are the words that are on the page, but also like, do I feel like I’m supporting a mission that is important to me, that, to me is, you know, I’ve been doing this, there’s only so many times you can look at the same spreadsheets. I’ve been doing this for a decade at this point. And you get tired of doing the same thing, unless you have that thing that continues to light you up. And you get found by clients whose mission you want to support or whose goals you want to help them achieve. You know, you said some things in a read your book this past week or so it’s like you said, like, I could help you get more followers on LinkedIn. And I think it will put you up and said, like, Mike, when you were first getting started, my ideal client is like a corporate C suite executive who makes between 250 and $500,000. A year. And he probably drives a Lexus Anita, you know, like you had this like, ideal client avatar? Yeah. Because that was the person who the marketing systems told you, you could pay at the price point of the services that you had priced, because you thought that the value of it, like there was this fundamental disconnect between what you were told your marketing was supposed to look like and who you were told you were supposed to be marketing to? And who you were. Yeah. So talk to me about that shift of like, once you started to bring your childhood background and your personal and company values into things like how did that shift happen?

Sarah Santacroce 13:01
Yeah, I just want to go back also to what you just said. So like the, the way, most of the time we’re taught to do marketing is to look at something external, right. And that’s exactly what I did with this ideal client, it was just like, oh, okay, this is the external ideal client, and he’s going to be able to pay my bills. And so I have to kind of orient the marketing also towards this person. And this all external, it’s just in the doing. So the shift to humane marketing is to really come from the being and come from the inside. And so by doing that, you have to go inside of you and again, to those values and story and all of that research. And then when you mark it from that place of insight, then it just kind of flows much more easily, because you’re talking about your passions and your bigger, why. And so, yeah, all of that starts to kind of just flow. And so you asked about to turn transition, change and transitions are never easy, right? magnet and so this one wasn’t easy either. Because again, we have to unlearn so much. And in the the traditional marketing, so the bro marketing kind of type is oriented towards the hustle. It’s oriented towards quick fixes, fast results. And probably also like it’s, well not probably it’s oriented towards more and more and more money, right? And so if you want to then say okay, but I don’t want to do marketing this way anymore, then you have to kind of like switch it around and say, well, actually, I’m in it for the long term because I love this business just so much and then dismission really matters to me. And so I want to just have the marketing flow. Well, then you need to first in the book I talk about the definition of Success, right? It’s like, well, what does success really look like for you? Because that’s another thing that I kind of got almost allergic about is that does talk about six and seven and eight figure businesses because that’s all we hear. Right? And, and that’s like a huge marketing trigger that people use. Oh, if you don’t do this, you’ll never get your seven figure

Meg Casebolt 15:23
business. Even if your seven figure business only makes you $50,000. Look, the gross revenue is is a million dollars, but you are spending 95% of your you know, expenses are eating up so much of it. Yeah, Facebook ads, let’s, let’s, let’s call it what it is. It’s expensive consultants and Facebook.

Sarah Santacroce 15:43
Exactly says so. So yeah, then you have to actually look at your definition of success, what really matters for you at the end, right? Maybe also get familiar with your own mortality, like, at the last on the last day, what matters to you.

Meg Casebolt 15:59
But it’s such a European approach to it. Americans were like, power through power power. Then you think about like, my mom is actually downsizing next week from our childhood home. So she’s been doing a lot of the like Danish art of death cleaning, just like, What do I need to clean out of my house? So that way, I don’t have to, like leave it behind for my kids. Like, we don’t do that in America, just like more and more consumption, bigger houses, but fancier cars, you know, and

Sarah Santacroce 16:27
it leaves you right, Meg? I mean, there’s a lot of anxiety. I think that’s, you know, anxiety was kind of the trigger for me to look at this work and say, what does all this marketing hustle do for people, and especially now with the economy that we’re in, you hear it all the time, like people had such bloated businesses, and then, you know, we’ve those high ticket, things don’t sell anymore, because frankly, even back then the, the value was questionable. But now people have gotten much more conscious. And so they’re like, there’s no way that there’s that much value in such a high ticket price. And so we’re coming back down to kind of like, you know, what’s the real value of things? And yeah, so this whole kind of journey of realizing what really matters, you know, what kind of business do I want to have? How much does Joy matter compared to money? You know, like, all these questions that you’re like, Well, I can keep hustling and hate every time I send out an email because it key, or I can actually really, truly enjoy my business and still make sales. Yeah.

Meg Casebolt 17:43
So let’s talk about that. That feeling of sales being gross, and how if you have a more humane approach to your marketing, then sales might not feel as uncomfortable.

Sarah Santacroce 17:55
Yeah, they don’t feel as uncomfortable because there’s much more integrity, and you’re not actually just pushing the sale, you’re just not you just know enough course that comes with confidence, you just know that you have a really, really good solution for this person’s problem. And so of course, I’m not saying you know, we’re not we’re now starting to exchange goods again and forget about the money. We’re not going back to

Meg Casebolt 18:23
a barter system. No, sometimes PayPal does feel like a little bit of a barter system where it’s like, it never actually gets to my bank account. It just lives in Pay Pal until I pay something else.

Sarah Santacroce 18:34
Maybe that’s their

Meg Casebolt 18:36
clams on a beach. It’s my PayPal account.

Sarah Santacroce 18:41
So that we’re not going back to barter system. But we still Yeah, we still believe in our solution so much that we were like, Yeah, we’re asking for the sale. But it’s not a selling for selling sake in selling because you actually have a solution to offer. And then that’s yeah, that’s what feels good. It feels good. Because you know that you’re helping your clients, you’re helping them maybe also with that bigger mission that you have in mind, you know, like, the bigger why to you know, change the world change whatever problems we have so many problems are so many you can somehow contribute to that. It gives you so much purpose and meaning. Your question was kind of like how was this transition? Again, it wasn’t easy because obviously, first of all, you have kind of trained your people to be in that hustle mode. You’ve trained also Yeah, your your your revenue was according to that hustle mode. And so my revenue definitely took a dip. Well then COVID didn’t help either, but never helped. Yeah,

Meg Casebolt 19:52
but the only people that helped are the interior designers because everyone is trapped in their homes. Pool Builders like who you know those very specific niche markets. Bread bakers, apparently.

Sarah Santacroce 20:04
That’s right. Banana Bread.

Meg Casebolt 20:06
Those banana bread recipe aficionados were raking it in.

Sarah Santacroce 20:12
So yeah, it definitely took a dip because I had to let go of these. Yeah, probably a quite a bit of my people are the people that I thought were my people that were like that heck is she talking about? Oh, this is different. This is a different energy. And pretty much yeah, re educating your, your email subscribers and your clients and,

Meg Casebolt 20:39
and being able to let go. Yeah, you know, I talk I’ve been talking a lot on the podcast lately about the sunk cost fallacy of like, we feel like we’ve built a very specific business, and it’s hard to let go of it. So you’d built a business that was talking to a different audience about something different and making that transition, and leaning into that, like kind of personal and business evolution, you have to let go of what worked and that’s really scary. So now you have this community of people that you’re supporting not one to one, but in a one to many model how, how are people finding you now? How are they discovering you and feeling like they know you enough to join the community?

Sarah Santacroce 21:23
Yeah, mainly the books. The marketing, like we’re human and selling like we’re human. So a lot of them come after reading the books, or, you know, hearing me on podcasts, or summits, or things like that, because it really takes that kind of proximity. So hearing me or, you know, when you read someone’s book, you feel like, you know, them, especially my book is very personal.

Meg Casebolt 21:47
So your book literally has like, hashtag vulnerability moment in there.

Sarah Santacroce 21:53
laid it all out there. And it’s super scary to publish that book. But it does now resonate with my kind of people. Because they’re like, hell yeah, that’s exactly. You know, it’s not like I invented something new, but I just gave them permission to also tap into that feeling of yes, that’s, you know, that’s exactly what we were thinking it just, yeah, we need to have a different way of marketing our businesses. So

Meg Casebolt 22:22
yeah, it’s like, you’re never come out and say, here’s the framework for doing humane marketing, it’s very much a permission to be curious and to explore, which requires a certain level of understanding and sophistication from your clients. I’m assuming we’re not talking about people who are out the gate starting their business and don’t have an idea yet. Like, you’re talking to people who are probably already a little bit jaded with the online marketplace.

Sarah Santacroce 22:52
Yeah, it’s bogus, actually, because there is you know, new people who just align with my worldview and my values and their are just starting out and they go out there and they look at what’s what you’re supposedly be doing with marketing, and they’re like, Hell, I’m not doing that. No way. Jesus has risen Right? Like, they’re 10 years more conscious than we were when we started 10 years ago.

Meg Casebolt 23:20
That’s true. They’re coming if they’re coming into it now they’ve partnered they may have been on the receiving end of it for a while before

Sarah Santacroce 23:29
he didn’t tire then they’re like that’s definitely not how I want to do it. And so there’s there’s some of those and then there’s the ones who who Yeah, who have basically not been doing much marketing because they just hated everything that was out there. there starts to be a few who are converting as still very, you know, not very often so the hardcore bro marketers they’re still doing the hardcore bro marketing. Why? Because it works. That’s the That’s the sad part. Right hardcore bro marketing, manipulation and all that. Well, yeah, it just gives you instant results. But the thing is, with my people, they don’t want to burn out they don’t want just instant results and keep hustling until they die. They want to build a joyful, long sustainable business and, and feel good and feel like they can sleep at night because they are just in complete integrity and wholeness. So yeah, they find me mainly via the books and the podcasts.

Meg Casebolt 24:34
That’s where I’m taking my business. So I love hearing that from you. What was it that made you feel like writing a book versus some of the more digital options that are out there?

Sarah Santacroce 24:47
Yeah, my people are deep thinkers. Like you said they’re kind of at a different level right they’re not just oh I’m we’re influencers on Instagram or like they’re are deep thinkers, and they want real solutions for their business, but also the world at large. And so these are the people who still read books. They’re not necessarily on Instagram or Facebook. And so that’s why a book resonated with me. And, and yeah, I’m a deep thinker, and I’m someone who loves to write. So that was kind of a

Meg Casebolt 25:27
perfect sense. And I like what you said also, which is like, you know who your people are. You could go chase Instagram, you could go run ads, and try to get in front of people who have, you know, let’s say that they’re following someone on Instagram who has a similar thought leadership approach, and you could do a related audience and you could, you know, try to find look alike audiences, and you could go try to go out into those existing marketplaces and those existing water coolers and, and just show up and be seen. Right. But that’s a very like, extroverted output based. Doo doo doo doo doo approach. Yeah. And you’re, it seems to me, like your approach is much more like, grounded. Like, instead of being a boat, going out and trying to find people who are, you know, I don’t want to say drowning. I don’t want to make it seem like that’s where we are. But instead of you going out and being the Coast Guard rescue service, you are the lighthouse. That’s like, Hey, here’s the beacon. Yeah, here’s the safe spot. I’m gonna stand still, I’m gonna stand here on the coast in integrity. And when you’re ready to come in, this is a safe place to land. Like, it’s a very different approach to marketing.

Sarah Santacroce 26:37
Yeah, yeah. And I’m not saying that I’ve not been the Coast Guard. I’ve been the Coast Guard. And I’ve exhausted myself. But that was before humane marketing, right? That was assaulting. And I’m like, Nope, I’m not doing that anymore. Exactly what you said, like, well, if people are ready, when people are ready, they’re gonna find their way here.

Meg Casebolt 27:00
And go through the book through the podcast through word of mouth, to a great extent, it sounds like it might be also referrals as people saying, Oh, I, you know, and going on other podcasts that are in alignment with your values, because you know, that those people are going to then, you know, you and I are in alignment. And so my audience is probably gonna like you and you’re gonna your audience might like me, and you know, having those collaborative relationships. And you mentioned summits? What are some more like collaborative ways that you are getting your own name out there? That doesn’t feel like you’re just standing on a cliff and yelling into the void? Yeah,

Sarah Santacroce 27:33
yeah. So summits work to some extent. It just really depends what kind of summits because summits as well, they’re not all humane. And I’m saying that because oftentimes, they’re just a big data overload or information overload for people. And that is actually not so humane, it’s, it’s great for the summit organizer, because they’re getting all these emails, you know, that’s why they’re doing it. We know that for the people, if they’re already in this marketing and business anxiety, they just get so much overwhelmed. And, and yes, every now and then, you know, they find a new jam, and they’re like, Oh, I just love this mag. And, you know, that’s great. But to some extent, we’re also kind of acting in a non humane way, because we’re just overloading them with information. So depends on the summit, I will contribute or participate in a summit if, if the topic is being you know, is aligned. So summits are good, any kind of other conferences, or actually, what I like now is to just be invited, or come and speak in a community where, you know, I can share and have a conversation and those can be smaller communities as well. So yeah, those kind of like smaller circles are actually very valuable. Yeah, I

Meg Casebolt 28:57
think there’s something really powerful about that metaphor, though, of being a stationary point that other people can find. I think that a lot of the ways that people are approaching marketing right now is more of a firefighting emergency services response of Oh reels is in right now. So I’m gonna go take a course about how to record Instagram reels that convert and then once people respond to my reel, then I’ll DM them and next week, it’s all going to change so I’ll have to come up with a new complete marketing strategy versus an approach that’s much more like grounded in what is sustainable, what is consistent, which is people and ourselves as leaders at the forefront of that that your childhood has not changed and will not change your values. If your values are changing every month and we have a problem.

Sarah Santacroce 29:58
They can change but over For years, not

Meg Casebolt 30:01
weeks or months, yeah, and usually because something has changed in your life, you know, before I had kids, I did not have as much of a value of the stability. I wanted to go explore and travel. And now that I have kids, especially neurodivergent kids who really need structure, I’ve had to change what our priorities are financially and time priorities. And you know, so I think values can change. But at the core of it, we’re still the same people. And if we can build businesses based on what we as people need, and not just what we think our clients need from us, right, I think that’s huge.

Sarah Santacroce 30:42
Yeah, no, there’s, there’s so much to that. And, and, as you know, you know, right now, we’re talking all the time about chat GPT, and all the other AI, which is definitely also something that will develop, right we, technology is here to stay, it’s not like it’s going away, it’s getting more and more a topic. And humane marketing is not about ditching technology, it’s about embracing technology, but using it in a more human and humane way. Because it can be a great help and assistant in our businesses. But what I’m seeing right now is all these reels and posts on social media about how with Chachi PT, you can now make, you know, 1000s and 1000s of contents and images and blah, blah, blah, all these things. And I’m like, Oh my god. So now we get this help, right from Ai, which is amazing. And all we use it for is to kussell even more and create more, you know, busyness in our lives, instead of, you know, actually sitting down. And we’re going to talk about that on my podcast when I show about this idea of sitting down and taking two or three hours, and writing a really, really good blog post that is really helpful for our clients, right? And yes, we can probably use some a chat GPT to help us with ideas and things like that. But we’re not just hustling, we’re really taking care of our clients, because we’re providing immense value with that blog post and not just another quote that we put up on a reel, right? So yeah, that’s kind of part of humane marketing, because it’s also has to be humane to our clients. It has to be humane to ourselves, and it has to be humane to our planet. And so if you really want to combine these three things, it’s about, you know, completely changing our mindset to business as well. How much time are we really needing to spend on our business and how much of it is just wasting time on social media? And, and the hustle, really,

Meg Casebolt 33:00
and I think a big part of that what you just said about wasting time and rethinking things? Is that kind of mindset of industrialization and capitalism of, well, if I’m not working, then what value do I have in the world, if I’m not producing, then who am I outside of what it is that I can create, and, you know, I have to be working from 9am till 9pm. Otherwise, it’s time wasted. Whereas I love what you’re saying about like, yes, we can create more using these automations. But then it’s just it if you’re if the goal of automation is to free up time to do more than it’s just adding more more, more hustle versus making things easier and and you can absolutely use these tools to create more quantity. But you’re you’re also going to spend sound a lot like everyone else and not have that quality leadership content, the things that help people to resonate with you because you because you don’t sound like everybody else, you know, the the AI tools are meant to aggregate what’s already out there. So how can you change the narrative by using something that’s based on the existing narrative, it’s really hard to be rebellious and countercultural in AI? It just is not what it’s built for. No,

Sarah Santacroce 34:25
we need to first you know, they we need to first feed it that rebellious character content.

Meg Casebolt 34:33
I would like to I have no idea how to even write an algorithm but I would like to write a book like empathy algorithm. Yeah, like teach robots to be less. I don’t know not even robotic just like less more more human. But then But then we also we’re training our robot overlords to overtake our world, so maybe that’s not the best choice.

Sarah Santacroce 34:53
Very Yeah, they actually I just read yesterday that a guy another marketer was like interviewing Open AI, and he caught him to admit that he’s male. AI is male. And so he’s like, Oh, I’m kind of shocked. I thought you were not gender specific. And he’s like, No, I’m, my name is John and I’m male. I’m like, Oh, my God, we have a serious problem. And it’s true that when he asked them to then write in a more feminine tone, it completely switched. And the more Pasic style came out, I’m like, Oh, that’s interesting. So now I’m always telling, telling it to use a feminine tone, interesting, changes everything. It’s like, Oh, wow. Okay. So

Meg Casebolt 35:39
there’s a really fascinating book called algorithms of oppression, about how because the algorithms are created by, you know, white, wealthy, middle class and cisgendered, heterosexual educated males, the results skew towards that same population, not in a, you know, there is a bias. In other words, like, you cannot remove bias from yourself, unless you recognize that it exists. And what you’re saying about, you know, feminizing feminizing language is more human like That’s to say, we’d meanwhile, what I like to do is take a blog post that I’ve already written, and just go into chat GPT and be like, do this in the style of a romance author, I’ll pick like Tessa Bailey and like Lisa Kleypas, and be like, just make this flower, you’re just for my own enjoyment. Like, what can I do to make this fun, again, to allow there to be some joy, especially, you know, I work in a very male dominated industry and in search engine optimization, and it’s very technical. And so sometimes I just want to like, just be be a woman in a field that is male dominated, and give examples that are, that are reasonable, and that are schemas that are familiar to women, where we’re not always talking about golf, as the example. It’s always baseball. And I’m like, you don’t want I love the Boston Red Sox. But I don’t need to use baseball, in every metaphor that I use. All right. Well, if people want to find out more about you, what’s the best way for them to sort of get to know you and enter into your world?

Sarah Santacroce 37:25
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share. So humane marketing is my website, humane dot marketing, I have a one page marketing plan with the seven P’s of humane marketing if people are curious. And again, these are not prescriptive. These are more like question your assumptions and think about the different pieces of your, of your business. And they can get that as you may end up marketing forward slash one page to number one and Word page. And then

Meg Casebolt 37:54
we’ll include that in the show notes. For sure, y’all.

Sarah Santacroce 37:56
Thank you. And then the book is marketing, like we’re human I that’s available on Amazon, and selling like we’re human. So that’s the second book on more on sales that I wrote after.

Meg Casebolt 38:09
And you have a podcast because we’re listening to podcast. So I always like to pitch podcast whenever possible.

Sarah Santacroce 38:15
Yes, and Meg will be on my show. We’ll record that shortly after. Exactly. I can’t tell

Meg Casebolt 38:21
you what I say on that because we are recording it right after we record this, but we will also include a link to that in the show notes for this one. So Sarah, thank you so much for everything today. And I hope well, I’ll see you recording in a different room in about five minutes. Sounds great.

Sarah Santacroce 38:37
Thanks so much for having me, Mike.

Meg Casebolt 38:41
Thank you so much for listening to the social slowdown podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe or come on over to social and sign up for our email list. You never miss an episode. We’d also love if you could write a review to help other small business owners find the show you can head over to social Or grab that link in our show notes for easy access. We’ll be back soon with more tips to help you market your business without being beholden to social media. Talk to you then

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humane marketing with sarah santacroce podcast episode